Tradition Conflict and Past with Jean Donaldson

Watch or hearken to the recording of the panel at Bark! Fest, the e-book pageant for animal lovers, with Jean Donaldson speaking about The Tradition Conflict.

Zazie Todd, Jean Donaldson, and Kristi Benson maintain up copies of The Tradition Conflict and, in Zazie’s case, Bark!

By Zazie Todd PhD

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Bark! Fest with Jean Donaldson

Bark! Fest, the e-book pageant for animal lovers, came about in
September 2024 with 11 writer panels (and one methods class from the
superb Erica Beckwith of A Matter of Manners Canine Coaching). It was organized to have a good time the launch of my new e-book, Bark! The Science of Serving to Your Anxious, Fearful, or Reactive Canine, which is out now and out there from all good bookstores.

That is the recording of the very first session, Tradition Conflict and Past with particular visitor Jean Donaldson.

You’ll be able to watch the recording on Youtube or beneath, and hearken to the recording wherever you get your podcasts (Apple) or beneath. Closed captions can be found on Youtube. You may also scroll all the way down to learn a few of the highlights of the dialogue.

We talked about:

• why Jean wrote her e-book The Tradition Conflict
• what the Transparency Problem is and why it is so essential for canine trainers to reply these questions
• her recommendation to somebody who’s battling their canine’s behaviour
• what’s distinctive in regards to the Academy for Canine Trainers
• a writing tip
• her favorite factor that is modified on the planet of canine coaching through the years
• and he or she answered numerous questions from the viewers

Get the books

The entire Bark! Fest books can be found from good bookstores, together with from Bookshop (which helps impartial bookstores), UK Bookshop, and my Amazon retailer. 

Sources talked about

Transparency in canine coaching  

The Academy for Canine Trainers 

Discover a PPG skilled 

Karen Pryor Academy 

Victoria Stilwell Academy  

The Nice Programs Canine Coaching 101  

The last word canine coaching tip  (Companion Animal Psychology)

Emily Priestley Wild at Coronary heart Canine Coaching and her e-book, City Sheepdog (see
additionally our current podcast with Emily, What you should learn about herding canine)

Cooperative Paws by Veronica Sanchez  

For those who like this, you may also prefer to see the Bark! Fest recording of Canines, trauma, and each ends of the leash with Patricia McConnell PhD. 

Many due to everybody who got here to Bark! Fest and made it such a beautiful occasion, and particular due to Jean Donaldson for this stunning and essential dialogue.

Highlights of the dialog with Jean Donaldson

Z: So can we begin by going again to while you have been writing The Tradition Conflict? As a result of this can be a e-book that so many individuals have advised me that this e-book modified their method to canine coaching. And loads of trainers who used aversives have advised me that that is the e-book that made them change to utilizing reward primarily based strategies. However the world was very completely different while you have been penning this e-book.

So can you are taking us again to that second and say what it was like? What was the backdrop and why did you write this e-book?

J: We’ve to return to 1992. There was a man, a distinguished coach I knew from the obedience trial circuit. He was quoted in {a magazine} and that is phrase for phrase, when you use meals to coach, the canine is doing it for the meals and never for you.

Now I had been collaborating in sports activities with my canine. I might been instructing lessons, doing circumstances for a few years by that time. And it had turn out to be obvious to me that canine did not simply do stuff like a two minute therapeutic routine simply to please us. So I felt there was a fiction occurring. And I knew this man and I knew how he skilled. It was with a choke collar, and he was fairly relentless, and his canine have been fairly joyless.

I have to say that he believed his canine have been cranking out obedience patterns for him. It actually caught in my craw that meals would one way or the other corrupt the canine’s noble impulse to do these methods for this man’s pleasure. And that this kind of invented platonic canine who wasn’t simply bonded to folks and did not simply love us, however who may very well be solely motivated by our happiness, was the truth is being mainly tortured by ache and strangulation units to keep up this phantasm.

It nearly made me bodily sick. So quick ahead a couple of years and I wrote that e-book as an try to tug the curtain again.

Ok: So, Jean, originally of Tradition Conflict, which was… I simply. I do know this is not a part of our script, however I simply wished to say I used to be one of many individuals who, I felt like my thoughts was actually cranked open once I learn this e-book. Not solely was it simply, like, such good info, and it made a lot sense to me as somebody who, you understand, I used to be a social scientist.

And so I appreciated the truth that it made sense as an alternative of it simply being, you understand, I had most likely learn like 50 canine books by that time, and. And I used to be simply continuously judging myself, like, why cannot I make my canine do what they are saying I ought to have the ability to do in these books, proper? I used to be, like, confused and type of, like, down on myself. After which I learn this e-book and I used to be similar to, oh, it was type of a, this huge aid.

It is sensible. It offers us a path ahead, you understand, so it was a very essential e-book for me too. 

So that you begin this e-book, The Tradition Conflict, by speaking about this Disneyfication of canine. And do you assume that is nonetheless a difficulty at this time?

J: I might say a lot much less now. There are undoubtedly whiffs of it within the power coaching crowd once they pour scorn on meals. So they could use phrases like dependence on the meals and so forth. All conduct will depend on outcomes. And the stuff we would like canine to do is usually, as we frequently say in utilized conduct, costly conduct. There’s all the time motivation. The one distinction is how upfront we’re about it.

Z: Yep, certain. Okay. And so some time in the past, the Academy created the Transparency Problem, which was shared in all places, and it is calling on canine trainers to be extra clear about their strategies. So, as you simply stated, it will depend on altering conduct. Is dependent upon one thing. So are you able to inform us about these questions that you simply arrange within the Transparency Problem and why they’re so essential?

J: The thought behind them is shopper safety. So the three questions are these:

• What’s going to occur to my canine when she will get it proper? 
• What’s going to occur to her when she will get it mistaken?
• Are there any much less invasive options to what you plan? 

So that is our questions that the general public ought to pose to canine trainers. Principally, it is about knowledgeable consent. In more moderen years, as coaching with out aversives has caught on, those that are depending on aversives are resorting to murkier and murkier language of their advertising and marketing supplies to hide what they’re truly doing. So you will see weaselly phrases like pure or management or vitality and so forth. 

The questions are designed to get concrete about how the coach is planning to encourage your canine. What occasions within the bodily world are going to occur when the canine will get it mistaken, most particularly? And a few coach says, properly, there’s simply going to be management.

[Feline interlude]

Ok: Lack of transparency is an actual concern for strange canine guardians. And I do know that was a part of the explanation why you got here up with the three query problem. So in addition to asking these three questions, what do you assume canine guardians ought to do to guard themselves from aversive strangers? As a result of they’re, such as you stated, I believe they’ve painted themselves right into a nook. They’re beginning to use different language. You realize, so, so what can somebody do with out getting a Ph.D. primarily in, in how the canine skilled world is working?

J: Yeah. I might say do not be cowed or bullied by these folks. If they are saying to you that your canine, quote unquote, must be corrected or that electrical shock would not truly damage, or that it is only a faucet on the shoulder, run away. There are higher options. 

In case your canine comes again from a board and practice or one thing worse than he was or now he’s afraid on high of being worse, report that coach. Report them to no matter group they belong to. Write a overview. Inform others on social media it isn’t okay, it is malpractice, it isn’t your fault, it is the coach. And if it is actually egregious, I might even say name a lawyer.

Z: Yeah, I believe that is good recommendation. And many individuals name in a canine coach exactly as a result of they’re battling their canine’s conduct. And a few conduct points could be very troublesome for strange folks to take care of. So except for discovering a very good coach, which as we all know is difficult due to that murky language, what different recommendation do you’ve got for somebody who’s battling their canine’s conduct?

J: Know that our expertise now could be higher than it ever has been and so they need to attempt to discover a licensed non aversive conduct practitioner. There is a referral listing on the Academy website. There is a referral listing on the Pet Skilled Guild website and in addition on the websites of non aversive colleges, issues like Karen Pryor Academy, Victoria Stilwell Academy. The coach’s website ought to specify no aversives will probably be used. So phrases like power free or no ache, no worry, and so forth. And ask these three questions and guarantee that the solutions that you simply get are clear and concrete and comprehensible.

Ok: One factor we frequently hear presently is that there is this improve in fearful and anxious canine. Now this I do not, so far as I do know, there hasn’t been an precise research on this, so it is arduous to quantify. However what’s your impression about numbers of fearful canine? You realize, kind of associated to the previous?

J: I do assume I’ve seen what you are describing and I do not know, such as you, there’s not been analysis to my information. My guess is that it is partly we’re doing a greater job of catching and diagnosing anxiousness problems and getting them applicable therapy. VBs are extra accessible. There are extra of them than ever earlier than. There may also be perhaps a little bit of a pendulum swing and a few over prognosis occurring. However once more, I truly do not know.

Z: It is arduous to know, is not it? And that is one thing that I hear very often. However as a result of there is not a particular piece of analysis that like compares the previous to now, there isn’t any technique to inform for certain. Yeah. Thanks. It is good to get your impressions on that. 

And now I wish to ask you in regards to the Academy for Canine Trainers as a result of I am very, very fortunate to be a graduate of the Academy for Canine Trainers. Kristi is just too, and Kristi is now a employees member there as properly. I couldn’t have picked a greater college to go to. I am so very, very pleased that I went to the Academy and I discovered a lot from being there.

However we’ve an enormous lot of your followers right here. So I am hoping that you may simply say one thing in regards to the academy and about what’s distinctive in regards to the Academy is canine coaching curriculum.

J: I might say it is a deeper dive into the whys about animal conduct in addition to learn how to work extra advanced circumstances. We additionally supervise the apply of our graduates. I coach my grads on circumstances day-after-day. So I suppose I might say it is for potential trainers who’re actually inquisitive about how conduct works and who’re keen on taking over tougher work with canine guardians.

Z: Yeah, thanks. I might say that.

Ok: Yeah. And I believe there is a power within the counseling modules too. You realize, I am working with people. I imply, we work with people virtually solely. I do not know any canine trainers who do not work with folks. And one of many issues that studying all these books for Bark! Fest, Zazie, that is actually been hammered house to me once I’m studying books by people who find themselves in our occupation, our skilled colleagues, is there’s much more consideration to folks.

I imply, there’s some, I believe, different nice issues and I hope Jean will discuss this a bit extra. Like there actually is much more kind of bandwidth given to the truth that canine are canine they usually have wants and we must always permit them to satisfy their very own wants and be canine. But in addition there’s this, like, persons are essential they usually’re not evil and we will love working with folks as canine trainers. So I believe that is a very cool a part of the Academy too.

Z: And if I can add an element too, I might say additionally simply the neighborhood and the neighborhood that you’ve with different trainers and the prospect to go and get suggestions on one thing when you want it, or simply to, you understand, let off steam about one thing if you should.

And simply the friendship amongst the folks, I believe is among the greatest issues that you simply’re nonetheless a part of this neighborhood after you’ve got graduated. You are not despatched off unfastened into the world. You are still a part of it. Which I believe, you understand, for me is unimaginable. So thanks, Jean.

J: Thanks.

Ok: So once I was taking a look at these questions yesterday and simply interested by what I actually wished to know, I simply, it occurred to me that issues have modified. You all the time say that issues have modified because you wrote this e-book.

This e-book, I believe, is mired in loads of anger and you’ll really feel it and it feels so righteous and good. You realize, in studying it. 

J: I have to say I’ve apologized for the tone on many events.

Ok: I imply, I’m right here for it. However I used to be questioning what out of every part that is modified because the time that you simply have been kind of impressed to jot down this e-book, what is the favourite factor of yours that is modified?

J: I’ve to say it is the military of practitioners on the market doing the job competently with out aversives thriving of their careers. It was not all the time so. It’s nonetheless a conflict zone, philosophically for certain. There are these remaining type of pockets of people that depend upon shock and so forth. They are going to go down combating, however down they’re going. That is 2024. It isn’t 1992 or in 96 once I wrote the e-book. It isn’t then anymore.

Z: Yeah, and I believe that applies to the tone too, as a result of it was wanted, completely wanted. And issues have modified so much since then. And as you say, the shock trainers are going to go down combating, however they’re undoubtedly persons are going to should cease utilizing shock as a result of we all know a lot extra in regards to the dangers and a lot extra about the advantages as properly of reward primarily based coaching.

So I’m going to ask you a query which isn’t on our listing, however I wish to learn about your, your favourite factor. As a result of while you’re coaching with rewards, the canine is de facto pleased about doing it. So what’s your favourite factor about utilizing constructive reinforcement to coach a canine?

J: How the canine seems to be. You realize, simply the best way they appear when it is similar to this. I imply, I can simply do stuff and, and get, that is enjoyable. That is like the very best factor ever.

It is simply how canine look while you practice with rewards versus how they appear when you do not.

Z: Yeah. And I believe that is so essential as a result of typically when persons are coaching with shock, they assume the canine is being good and they are not in a position to learn the canine’s physique language that reveals that they don’t seem to be pleased in any respect in that pleased expectant look on a canine’s face. There was even a chunk of analysis that regarded on the look on the canine’s face once they’re participating in constructive reinforcement coaching. And it is simply stunning, I believe. 

J: Yeah. 

Z: So I wish to ask you a query about one in all your different books as a result of we’re specializing in The Tradition Conflict at this time. However along with The Tradition Conflict, you’ve got written fairly a couple of different books that every one of them are wonderful. We have got Struggle and Mine and we have got Canines are from Neptune and we have additionally bought Practice Your Canine Like a Professional, which I discussed within the introduction. So I wish to ask you particularly about that as a result of that is aimed toward strange canine trainers. Why did you determine to jot down that specific e-book and who do you assume will profit most from it?

J: It is for guardians and it is for guardians who wish to do it your self. And for these folks, there was already loads of good type of first rules info on the market, however I did not assume that there was something that was tremendous duper granular and regular step-by-step.

And in order that. And likewise that course that you simply talked about from the good programs, Canine Coaching 101, they’re designed to fill that hole of precisely what to do, put this into slot A and slot B, step-by-step, learn how to practice in a contemporary and proof primarily based style.

Z: Thanks. And I’ve a query about your writing course of as properly. However I particularly wish to ask you about your writing course of for Tradition Conflict since you’ve written all of those books, and Oh Behave is one other one as properly. However while you have been writing Tradition Conflict, if we take into consideration the tone of the e-book, did all of it come out very simply or did it’s a must to sit and plan it quite a bit? I do know it was a very long time in the past, however what do you bear in mind in regards to the course of of truly writing it?

J: I keep in mind that I used to be very offended, that I used to be actually very uninterested in kind of the continued narrative about canine desirous to please us being promulgated by individuals who have been, for my part, harming canine. Egregiously harming canine. And I could not, I could not stand it anymore. And so I type of vomited it out in a single summer time. My course of was not superb or skilled. It simply type of out it got here.

Now, through the years, I, you understand, there’s been a few rewrites to attempt to, you understand, hold it updated as a result of my philosophy did change somewhat bit, and in addition to attempt to modulate that tone somewhat bit, as a result of I do know that it may be fairly often off placing.

Z: I do not know that it is off placing. I would not say that. However I believe it will depend on who some folks. And I am certain it felt prefer it was wanted on the time.

And there is a writing query that we frequently ask as a result of we interface with loads of completely different writers, Kristi and I. We’ve a writing group, and we additionally discuss to loads of completely different authors, and we all the time ask them for a writing tip. 

J: I can not bear in mind, a well-known writer, perhaps it was Hemingway. Any person stated writing is rewriting.

So do not take what I simply described once I wrote The Tradition Conflict. Do not do this, you understand, for certain. Get out a draft. So the primary draft goes to be garbage, however then return and revise, revise, present it to someone, you understand, after which revise it some extra after which learn it after which repair it after which be ready to do a number of a number of drafts to get the place you wish to go.

Ok: I did wish to, simply because it occurred to me it is like a literary pageant. That is primarily a literary pageant. And I believe speaking about writing is so essential as a result of writing is a very essential method that canine trainers work together with potential audiences. And I used to be questioning, like, are you simply, like, a talented phrase crafter or did you’ve got lessons on writing or how? Since you’re an amazing writer. You are a really readable writer.

J: Thanks. Yeah, properly, I respect that very a lot, however I, I do not. I do not think about myself in that echelon. I imply, there are folks in that echelon. I’m type of, I am a compulsive rewriter. So I’ve, through the years, turn out to be very a lot about honing issues down and getting issues tighter. So I do advise folks to spend a great deal of their vitality getting in there and really ruthlessly modifying for size, modifying for tightness, modifying for readability, getting suggestions after which modifying some extra.

Ok: And did you’ve got lessons on, like, did you are taking artistic writing or something like that? 

J: No, no, I did not. I, you understand, I might need. I imply, if I dwell lengthy sufficient and retire, I’d do one thing like that. I believe these are most likely nice enjoyable. I didn’t. 

I believe one factor that may have helped is I learn quite a bit and I believe studying helps quite a bit. Simply kind of passively with the suitable, you understand, capacity to jot down, perhaps.

Z: Yeah, yeah. And I believe additionally it helps with understanding, like once we’re speaking about speaking with strange folks about canine coaching. I believe having all that, having completed all of that studying lets you clarify issues higher.

And I completely will put you in that echelon of writers, by the best way. I believe you are a beautiful author. In order that’s why we’re so thrilled to have you ever, to have you ever right here.

And I wished to ask. You stated one in all your favourite issues that has modified. And we talked about additionally how there are extra folks utilizing constructive reinforcement. And also you stated there are such a lot of folks doing this. And clearly The Tradition Conflict as a e-book has been a kind of issues that is been instrumental in inflicting change. And I discuss with all of the individuals who inform me that it is modified how they method coaching canine.

However we’re a part of a wider tradition as properly. So what different issues do you assume have helped to alter the tradition in the direction of extra folks utilizing reward primarily based coaching strategies?

J: That is an amazing query. I do assume issues just like the MeToo motion, issues like social media, which is, after all there are big issues with social media, however the capacity for folks to kind of work together and get their very own concepts on the market.

And it simply, I imply, society is completely different now. There’s much less tolerance of violence, there’s much less tolerance of oppression of teams. There’s additionally, I believe, much less of a premium, what I might name speciesism, that we…

There’s better respect, I believe, than ever earlier than for being, for not being human. And I believe all that’s serving to the trigger.

Z: Yeah, I believe undoubtedly that may be a change that. Do you assume it is also to do with folks being extra prone to see canine as a part of their household?

J: Oh, definitely, yeah. And I believe typically that was paid lip service beforehand, but it surely was so ingrained within the tradition that what you probably did to your member of the family was, you understand, scare the crap out of them or you understand, or put a strangulation machine round their neck.

Now I believe we’re. We’re strolling the stroll somewhat bit extra with the member of the family factor.

Z: Yeah, yeah. And we have seen adjustments in how folks deal with youngsters, too. So do you assume to some extent that type of rubs off on how folks work together with canine as properly?

J: I believe that is an amazing level. Sure. I believe it was once, I imply, you understand, earlier generations the place youngsters, there was a better tolerance for corporal punishment, better tolerance for scaring the hell out of youngsters.

I believe that’s not the case, and I do not assume it is any shameful. I do know there’s nonetheless pockets of people that pour scorn on the concept of, you understand, folks having fur infants and so forth and, you understand, considering of canine as their children. However I believe that is a fabulous growth. I believe that is completely legitimate.

This partial transcript has been flippantly edited for content material and magnificence.

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